Arsjief

Contents 1 How do you make Oceana? 2 Oceana analysis 3 Photo 4 Hello 5 IP blocked 6 ? 7 Request 8 Hey Oos 9 Message 10 Interview 11 PL's position 11.1 What did you think of that conlang summary? 12 Dutch words 13 Please 14 Request 15 Apology 16 Adding me (Strobe) 17 Message 18 Voting 19 Labour Congress Calling... 20 chat 21 Christian Political Coalition 22 Long Road 23 chat 24 sorry 25 Wikistad 26 Chat 27 Gay equality bill 28 Confusion 29 Issue 30 Replacement 31 oos chat 32 Chat 33 Hi Oos 34 chat 35 Adoha Regional Airport 36 chatta 37 Mr. Prime Minister 38 Citizenship 39 Act now! 40 chat 41 Milk is good for everyone 42 delete 43 Congratulations 44 Two things 45 Train Village Local Elections 46 On purpose loophole?

How do you make Oceana? Edit

Hey Oos,

I've always wondered how you make Oceana-- is it truly just a wonderful little dump of creativity of a fake language you're making? Or is it heavily based on other languages? It's certainly realistic and is ostensibly consistent in spelling and general form. In other words, Oceana seems too good to be truly artificial.

I ask because I think it would be interesting to run analysis of Oceana to determine such things as how many words are known to exist, the average length of words, and how close Oceana is to other languages in terms of letter sequencing.

I don't know if you're programming inclined, but one thing that could be done is use a basic dictionary of Oceana words, and give this dictionary to a computer that would figure out how often characters come after each other, and finally tell this program to generate what it perceives as reasonably Oceana-like words.

ARMACHEDES 23:49, November 18, 2012 (UTC)

Personally, I don't think such results would be very illuminating, since f.e. the average word length doesn't tell you anything interesting about the linguistics of the language. I agree Oceana seems very naturalistic (though I'm not convinced by the history :P) and I'd like someone with a more than amateur interest in linguistics to comment on this. :) --Semyon 00:02, November 19, 2012 (UTC)

Hahah, actually, the realisticness of the first words I created is very low :P The more recent additions rely on grammatical endings such as -nost, -ni, and -bechen and on a nearly fixed way of changing from Slovak to Oceana.

In Lovia, we have about 2,500 words. On my computer, there are another 3,000. That makes 5,500 words in total :P

The average length of words would not be that interesting, as Oceana is an agglutinating language. To illustrate this, "length of words" will be only one word :P

I must say it would be interesting to run some "professional" analysis on Oceana and compare it to languages like Dutch, Slovak, and English. Probably, it will still be fairly close to English, maybe with "t" and "s" being slightly more common and "e" slightly less :P --OuWTB^sjrief-mich 04:17, November 19, 2012 (UTC)

I can hack together a little script that can do that for you, if you'd like. All I'd need is a decent-sized corpus of text. I could compare results of looking at Oceana with results from English or Dutch, too. If you have a collection of Oceana text (a dictionary would work too, I suppose, but could give undue weight to some patterns if they commonly occur among uncommon words), could you point me towards it? ARMACHEDES 19:50, November 21, 2012 (UTC)

[1] - [2] (though not the last few lines, they are still in English) - [3]. --OuWTB^sjrief-mich 19:58, November 21, 2012 (UTC)

Cool, that last one ("Thie Evangelias o'that Biblia") should do the trick. I'll write that program and be right back. ARMACHEDES 20:31, November 21, 2012 (UTC)

Oceana analysis Edit

Ok, so here's a table of what letters come after which in Oceana. The probabilities increment (so that the last value, the probability that a space precedes some letter, is 1), because I wanted to get my program to generate a few Oceana-like words and having the probabilities like that makes it easier to do so. The numbers don't mean all to much to a human, I'm afraid.

  | a    | b    | c    | d    | e    | f    | g    | h    | i    | j    | k    | l    | m    | n    | o    | p    | q    | r    | s    | t    | u    | v    | w    | x    | y    | z    |      |
a | 0.00 | 0.04 | 0.05 | 0.06 | 0.07 | 0.08 | 0.09 | 0.10 | 0.12 | 0.12 | 0.14 | 0.20 | 0.24 | 0.44 | 0.44 | 0.44 | 0.44 | 0.48 | 0.53 | 0.82 | 0.82 | 0.84 | 0.86 | 0.86 | 0.87 | 0.89 | 1.00 | 
b | 0.07 | 0.07 | 0.07 | 0.07 | 0.31 | 0.31 | 0.31 | 0.31 | 0.51 | 0.51 | 0.51 | 0.55 | 0.55 | 0.55 | 0.58 | 0.58 | 0.58 | 0.66 | 0.66 | 0.66 | 0.88 | 0.88 | 0.88 | 0.88 | 0.98 | 0.98 | 1.00 | 
c | 0.27 | 0.27 | 0.27 | 0.27 | 0.31 | 0.31 | 0.31 | 0.70 | 0.70 | 0.70 | 0.79 | 0.80 | 0.80 | 0.80 | 0.98 | 0.98 | 0.98 | 0.99 | 0.99 | 0.99 | 0.99 | 0.99 | 0.99 | 0.99 | 0.99 | 0.99 | 1.00 | 
d | 0.14 | 0.14 | 0.14 | 0.18 | 0.40 | 0.40 | 0.40 | 0.40 | 0.48 | 0.48 | 0.48 | 0.50 | 0.50 | 0.52 | 0.68 | 0.68 | 0.68 | 0.69 | 0.73 | 0.73 | 0.75 | 0.75 | 0.76 | 0.76 | 0.76 | 0.77 | 1.00 | 
e | 0.03 | 0.05 | 0.06 | 0.10 | 0.12 | 0.13 | 0.13 | 0.14 | 0.14 | 0.14 | 0.15 | 0.19 | 0.25 | 0.36 | 0.36 | 0.37 | 0.37 | 0.44 | 0.50 | 0.59 | 0.59 | 0.59 | 0.61 | 0.61 | 0.62 | 0.62 | 1.00 | 
f | 0.03 | 0.03 | 0.03 | 0.03 | 0.16 | 0.25 | 0.25 | 0.25 | 0.30 | 0.30 | 0.30 | 0.34 | 0.34 | 0.34 | 0.69 | 0.69 | 0.69 | 0.73 | 0.74 | 0.84 | 0.88 | 0.88 | 0.88 | 0.88 | 0.88 | 0.88 | 1.00 | 
g | 0.10 | 0.10 | 0.10 | 0.10 | 0.17 | 0.17 | 0.17 | 0.22 | 0.29 | 0.29 | 0.29 | 0.41 | 0.42 | 0.43 | 0.78 | 0.78 | 0.78 | 0.83 | 0.83 | 0.84 | 0.88 | 0.88 | 0.88 | 0.88 | 0.88 | 0.88 | 1.00 | 
h | 0.26 | 0.26 | 0.26 | 0.26 | 0.44 | 0.44 | 0.44 | 0.44 | 0.64 | 0.64 | 0.65 | 0.66 | 0.66 | 0.66 | 0.77 | 0.77 | 0.77 | 0.78 | 0.78 | 0.79 | 0.89 | 0.89 | 0.89 | 0.89 | 0.89 | 0.89 | 1.00 | 
i | 0.04 | 0.05 | 0.06 | 0.08 | 0.24 | 0.25 | 0.30 | 0.30 | 0.30 | 0.31 | 0.32 | 0.35 | 0.39 | 0.65 | 0.65 | 0.66 | 0.66 | 0.67 | 0.77 | 0.87 | 0.87 | 0.90 | 0.90 | 0.90 | 0.90 | 0.90 | 1.00 | 
j | 0.10 | 0.10 | 0.10 | 0.10 | 0.33 | 0.33 | 0.33 | 0.33 | 0.43 | 0.43 | 0.43 | 0.43 | 0.43 | 0.43 | 0.70 | 0.70 | 0.70 | 0.70 | 0.74 | 0.74 | 0.87 | 0.87 | 0.87 | 0.87 | 0.87 | 0.87 | 1.00 | 
k | 0.11 | 0.11 | 0.11 | 0.11 | 0.24 | 0.24 | 0.24 | 0.24 | 0.32 | 0.32 | 0.32 | 0.37 | 0.37 | 0.39 | 0.48 | 0.48 | 0.48 | 0.57 | 0.61 | 0.74 | 0.83 | 0.83 | 0.83 | 0.83 | 0.88 | 0.88 | 1.00 | 
l | 0.20 | 0.20 | 0.20 | 0.22 | 0.42 | 0.42 | 0.42 | 0.42 | 0.50 | 0.50 | 0.50 | 0.60 | 0.62 | 0.62 | 0.80 | 0.81 | 0.81 | 0.81 | 0.83 | 0.85 | 0.85 | 0.85 | 0.85 | 0.85 | 0.85 | 0.85 | 1.00 | 
m | 0.11 | 0.11 | 0.11 | 0.11 | 0.30 | 0.30 | 0.30 | 0.30 | 0.37 | 0.37 | 0.37 | 0.38 | 0.41 | 0.42 | 0.50 | 0.51 | 0.51 | 0.51 | 0.52 | 0.52 | 0.56 | 0.56 | 0.56 | 0.56 | 0.58 | 0.58 | 1.00 | 
n | 0.10 | 0.10 | 0.10 | 0.14 | 0.33 | 0.33 | 0.38 | 0.38 | 0.43 | 0.45 | 0.46 | 0.46 | 0.46 | 0.47 | 0.48 | 0.48 | 0.48 | 0.48 | 0.51 | 0.54 | 0.55 | 0.55 | 0.55 | 0.55 | 0.55 | 0.55 | 1.00 | 
o | 0.01 | 0.03 | 0.04 | 0.11 | 0.11 | 0.13 | 0.14 | 0.14 | 0.15 | 0.15 | 0.17 | 0.20 | 0.25 | 0.30 | 0.31 | 0.32 | 0.32 | 0.37 | 0.48 | 0.58 | 0.61 | 0.69 | 0.80 | 0.80 | 0.80 | 0.81 | 1.00 | 
p | 0.06 | 0.06 | 0.06 | 0.06 | 0.20 | 0.20 | 0.20 | 0.24 | 0.27 | 0.27 | 0.27 | 0.29 | 0.29 | 0.30 | 0.63 | 0.65 | 0.65 | 0.88 | 0.89 | 0.92 | 0.96 | 0.96 | 0.96 | 0.96 | 0.96 | 0.96 | 1.00 | 
q | 0.00 | 0.00 | 0.00 | 0.00 | 0.00 | 0.00 | 0.00 | 0.00 | 0.00 | 0.00 | 0.00 | 0.00 | 0.00 | 0.00 | 0.00 | 0.00 | 0.00 | 0.00 | 0.00 | 0.00 | 0.00 | 0.00 | 0.00 | 0.00 | 0.00 | 0.00 | 0.00 | 
r | 0.16 | 0.16 | 0.16 | 0.21 | 0.34 | 0.35 | 0.36 | 0.37 | 0.49 | 0.49 | 0.49 | 0.49 | 0.49 | 0.50 | 0.64 | 0.65 | 0.65 | 0.66 | 0.71 | 0.75 | 0.78 | 0.78 | 0.78 | 0.78 | 0.80 | 0.80 | 1.00 | 
s | 0.04 | 0.04 | 0.04 | 0.04 | 0.18 | 0.18 | 0.18 | 0.37 | 0.42 | 0.42 | 0.44 | 0.45 | 0.46 | 0.46 | 0.51 | 0.52 | 0.52 | 0.53 | 0.55 | 0.66 | 0.66 | 0.66 | 0.68 | 0.68 | 0.70 | 0.70 | 1.00 | 
t | 0.03 | 0.03 | 0.05 | 0.05 | 0.15 | 0.15 | 0.15 | 0.52 | 0.54 | 0.54 | 0.54 | 0.55 | 0.55 | 0.56 | 0.59 | 0.59 | 0.59 | 0.60 | 0.67 | 0.72 | 0.72 | 0.72 | 0.73 | 0.73 | 0.73 | 0.73 | 1.00 | 
u | 0.00 | 0.02 | 0.02 | 0.13 | 0.35 | 0.35 | 0.35 | 0.35 | 0.35 | 0.35 | 0.36 | 0.38 | 0.41 | 0.50 | 0.50 | 0.51 | 0.51 | 0.57 | 0.66 | 0.72 | 0.72 | 0.72 | 0.72 | 0.72 | 0.72 | 0.73 | 1.00 | 
v | 0.34 | 0.34 | 0.34 | 0.34 | 0.67 | 0.67 | 0.67 | 0.67 | 0.85 | 0.85 | 0.85 | 0.86 | 0.86 | 0.86 | 0.93 | 0.93 | 0.93 | 0.99 | 0.99 | 0.99 | 1.00 | 1.00 | 1.00 | 1.00 | 1.00 | 1.00 | 1.00 | 
w | 0.13 | 0.13 | 0.13 | 0.14 | 0.26 | 0.26 | 0.29 | 0.29 | 0.30 | 0.30 | 0.35 | 0.35 | 0.35 | 0.39 | 0.40 | 0.40 | 0.40 | 0.44 | 0.57 | 0.60 | 0.61 | 0.61 | 0.61 | 0.61 | 0.61 | 0.61 | 1.00 | 
x | 0.00 | 0.00 | 0.00 | 0.00 | 0.00 | 0.00 | 0.00 | 0.00 | 0.00 | 0.00 | 0.00 | 0.00 | 0.00 | 0.00 | 0.00 | 0.00 | 0.00 | 0.00 | 0.00 | 0.00 | 0.00 | 0.00 | 0.00 | 0.00 | 0.00 | 0.00 | 0.00 | 
y | 0.16 | 0.16 | 0.16 | 0.20 | 0.34 | 0.34 | 0.34 | 0.34 | 0.39 | 0.39 | 0.39 | 0.44 | 0.45 | 0.54 | 0.54 | 0.54 | 0.54 | 0.60 | 0.60 | 0.63 | 0.63 | 0.67 | 0.67 | 0.67 | 0.67 | 0.71 | 1.00 | 
z | 0.23 | 0.23 | 0.23 | 0.34 | 0.47 | 0.47 | 0.47 | 0.48 | 0.52 | 0.52 | 0.52 | 0.57 | 0.58 | 0.58 | 0.69 | 0.69 | 0.69 | 0.71 | 0.71 | 0.71 | 0.89 | 0.89 | 0.91 | 0.91 | 0.91 | 0.93 | 1.00 | 
  | 0.08 | 0.15 | 0.17 | 0.22 | 0.25 | 0.27 | 0.29 | 0.35 | 0.39 | 0.40 | 0.45 | 0.48 | 0.51 | 0.54 | 0.61 | 0.63 | 0.63 | 0.65 | 0.70 | 0.90 | 0.91 | 0.92 | 0.93 | 0.93 | 0.94 | 0.95 | 1.00 | 

Yeah it's a little long. :P Anyhow, I got the program to print out some fake Oceana for me. Tell me if it's reasonable (note that it's normal that 80% of these are obviously crap-- random numbers cannot reproduce actual language too well). Btw, the technique I'm using is called Markov chains, and it's a fairly common idea to use these to generate natural language-like text. Except most of the time people use consecutive words, and it's to generate spam.

>> Generating 100 words, then filtering out words where length < 3:

ellos 
ado 
puelseate 
ldal 
thuero 
tevepon 
eds 
hothuers 
igrathnahane 
biet 
ana 
athu 
oves 
tha 
yat 
kil 
han 
thi 
dothi 
the 
otabie 
brear 
tlatl 
tovigushabinenene 
hin 
ath 
broviebudenine 
modedalanen 
thu 
henarin 
prse 
aratide 
ssh 
thin 
kun 
aish 
den 
opho 
yie 
chlahetem 
jede 
ckud 
theve 
foshiniat 
heren 
owraradanen 
ithelo 
hat 
inere 
aneerow 
rca 
tshinabyemie 
anenshe 
syedd 
jis 

What do you think? ARMACHEDES 20:57, November 21, 2012 (UTC)

I'll leave it to Oos to comment on whether the words are realistic or not. :P I will say, though, that the program in some cases has made some (understandable) mistakes; in particular, there are certain consonant combinations that are limited to certain places in a word - hence 'ckud' and 'rca' are illegal because 'ck' and 'rc' are cannot appear at the start or end of a word respectively. But yeah, some of the words you generated are real Oceana words, so nice work I guess. :P --Semyon 21:11, November 21, 2012 (UTC)

Thanks. This technique works really well in some languages, not so much in others. In Spanish, with the occasional error due to three "l"s in a row, the results are truly impeccable. ARMACHEDES 21:22, November 21, 2012 (UTC)

Oh, and the letter distribution: ARMACHEDES 21:22, November 21, 2012 (UTC)

I'm in semi-progress of making a conlang - grammar is mostly Spanish or English, but the words/character make it stand out. 77topaz (talk) 22:40, November 21, 2012 (UTC)

Very interesting! Oceana is fairly close to English, with "a", "h", "k", and "t" being slightly more common. The words indeed are mostly crappy, but apart from some obvious nonsense "tlatl", "rca", "syedd", it's quite reasonable :) --OuWTB^sjrief-mich 05:21, November 22, 2012 (UTC)

"Tlatl" reminds me of the Zhodani language from "Traveller". 77topaz (talk) 07:05, November 22, 2012 (UTC)

"tlatl" is the Nahuatl word for "sling" :) --OuWTB^sjrief-mich 10:56, November 23, 2012 (UTC)

Do you speak Nahuatl? :O --Semyon 10:59, November 23, 2012 (UTC)

Not fluently :P --OuWTB^sjrief-mich 11:00, November 23, 2012 (UTC)

Photo Edit

Can you find a photo of a young actor so I can use it for one of my characters? I cannot find a good photo. Happy65 ^{Talk CNP} 12:25, November 24, 2012 (UTC)

Have you tried Wikimedia Commons? --OuWTB^sjrief-mich 12:27, November 24, 2012 (UTC)

Still cannot find a good photo. Happy65 ^{Talk CNP} 12:28, November 24, 2012 (UTC)

Perhaps you shouldn't look for "actor", but for something else like "young man" etc. If the image is fine, nobody'll have to know it ain't an actor in real life :) --OuWTB^sjrief-mich 12:30, November 24, 2012 (UTC)

I cannot, the good ones I find are all No copying copyright thingy. Happy65 ^{Talk CNP} 12:32, November 24, 2012 (UTC)

Nobody cares. --OuWTB^sjrief-mich 12:33, November 24, 2012 (UTC)

I care, I don't want to be in? The Hague? in court. Happy65 ^{Talk CNP} 12:35, November 24, 2012 (UTC)

Okay, then you'd have to search further or not include a picture at all :P --OuWTB^sjrief-mich 12:36, November 24, 2012 (UTC)

Hello Edit

Hello Oos Wes Ilava! I am Dave Leskromento of the Peace Island Times and would like to suggest to you an important article on the Peace Island Times. It is the newest article. Thanks. Happy65 ^{Talk CNP} 16:55, December 3, 2012 (UTC)

You made me curious, I'll read it right away :P --OuWTB^sjrief-mich 17:23, December 3, 2012 (UTC)

Hey Oos, I'm going to redo the economic statistics I forgot to take into account the relative strength/weakness of the different state economies in different sectors. Hoffmann KunarianTALK 16:06, December 5, 2012 (UTC)

Okay. If you need help, just ask. --OuWTB^sjrief-mich 16:08, December 5, 2012 (UTC)

IP blocked Edit

For some reason ("spam") they cross-wiki blocked my IP or account... I hope this'll get fixed soon, until then, I'll just have to wait :P --OuWTB^sjrief-mich 05:20, December 6, 2012 (UTC)

Outrageous! --Semyon 13:32, December 6, 2012 (UTC)

It should be fixed now. Wikia accidently blocked all users of one of their servers :P --OuWTB^sjrief-mich 16:56, December 6, 2012 (UTC)

well they have to mess up once in awhile. :P Marcus/Michael Villanova 22:34, December 6, 2012 (UTC)

And by 'once in a while' we mean 'all the time.' *waits for block* --Semyon 22:46, December 6, 2012 (UTC)

If you want I can speed up that process to help wikia. It's just one click in RC :P --OuWTB^sjrief-mich 08:19, December 7, 2012 (UTC)

Couldn't I unblock myself though? I've often wondered what would happen, but didn't really want to try. --Semyon 10:18, December 7, 2012 (UTC)

Yes, you can, unless it's a cross-wiki block or they took away your administrative powers :P --OuWTB^sjrief-mich 10:54, December 7, 2012 (UTC)

 ? Edit

Shall I sign the IWO declaration papers? Happy65 ^{Talk CNP} 09:51, December 8, 2012 (UTC)

How does Harvia's political system work? --OuWTB^sjrief-mich 09:51, December 8, 2012 (UTC)

Currently working on it. There will be 16 ministries, 4 of which have already been created. No interactive federal/district elections though since there is not enough users. I am the King (either I or the vacant role of president can sign papers) and a fictional character created by I is foreign affairs minister. The federal house is called the Estates. We use the currency of Corona (administrated by Horton11). Happy65 ^{Talk CNP} 09:57, December 8, 2012 (UTC)

Okay, in that case, if Harvia supports the membership of Inselöarna, all we need is a formal statement and the names of the head of the government (king or president) and the name of the secretary of foreign affairs. --OuWTB^sjrief-mich 10:01, December 8, 2012 (UTC)

I have supported the Insel Islands and my formal statement is:

The Kingdom of the Harvian Islands, ruled by King Joaquin I of the Harvian Islands with an agreement of the King and the Minister of Foreign Affairs of Harvia, with all IWO full member nations agreeing, officially declares itself a full member of the International Wikination Organization. - King Joaquin I.

Okay, now we'll have to wait on the others :P --OuWTB^sjrief-mich 10:11, December 8, 2012 (UTC)

so, can Harvian Islands become a full member. Maores, Brunant and Lovia have all confirmed? Happy65 ^{Talk CNP} 10:12, December 8, 2012 (UTC)

Harvia is a full member :) --OuWTB^sjrief-mich 10:14, December 8, 2012 (UTC)

I'll sign the delcaration papers now. Thanks. Happy65 ^{Talk CNP} 10:15, December 8, 2012 (UTC)

Request Edit

I would like to request a babel template that states my native language is english. Happy65 ^{Talk CNP} 09:52, December 9, 2012 (UTC)

See Template:User en. You can insert it on your userpage using {{Babel|en}}. --OuWTB^sjrief-mich 09:56, December 9, 2012 (UTC)

Hey Oos Edit

Oos, would you be interested in having a railway from Hurbanova to East Hills (Emerald Highlands) and maybe a connection to Charleston? You mentioned before you were interested in one, and it could be a good alternative to link Charleston if nothing as agreed on by Kunarian (ps. Kunarian, if you read this, don't go all crazy cause this is only a suggestion and not an evil scheme to undermine you). HORTON11: • 18:30, December 11, 2012 (UTC)

Horton it would be nice if you didn't make such remarks as "Kunarian, if you read this, don't go all crazy cause this is only a suggestion and not an evil scheme to undermine you" when I complain about my position being undermined it is for good reason and personally I am glad you've started to do this in a more democratic way, however my largest problem is the lack of any real taking account of costs on your part, personally I would find it easier to support/oppose your ideas if you gave me a price tag. Hoffmann KunarianTALK 18:40, December 11, 2012 (UTC)

@Horton: Even though Oos is the PM, he does not have executive power to build railway extensions. Happy65 ^{Talk CNP} 18:32, December 11, 2012 (UTC)

I was talking to the Governor of Oceana.in this case, and it would be about a new railway or perhaps just a renovation of the old Emerald Railway. HORTON11: • 18:36, December 11, 2012 (UTC)

The Governor of Oceana does not have authority of extending the line to Charleston. This is what you said: (Oos, would you be interested in having a railway from Hurbanova to East Hills (Emerald Highlands) and maybe a connection to Charleston?), Happy65 ^{Talk CNP} 18:43, December 11, 2012 (UTC)

@ Happy- I know what I said. Oos woudn't have that authority but the Ministry of Transportation might. And for that "maybe a connection" I would like to have Kunarian and Oos' cooperation in this.

@Kunarian- Well sorry but I'm no economist, so I couldn't really price the railway (but I believe you're not one either). And in the real world, pricing large projects isn't always right (in Canada they have a fighter jet scandal where the planes cost 5x their first estimate). HORTON11: • 19:47, December 11, 2012 (UTC)

Being well educated in Lovian law I can tell you the ministry does not and never should have that right. I will give my support if an accurate budget is drawn up and if a good plan on how to fund it is given. You don't need to be an economist to price a railway. And being actually well versed in economics and business I can tell you in the real world everything has a plan drawn up with very specific pricing, for you to suggest otherwise is lunacy. Hoffmann KunarianTALK 20:01, December 11, 2012 (UTC)

Well the state doesn't have that right, it seems, since that was never put into law.

As good as any price plan may be, it will never go to plan (here's a good example: http://www.thestar.com/news/canada/politics/article/1298933). But that doesn't mean that every project will to be astronomically off course. And lastly, as you seem to be good at writing up financial things here, would you be willing to work with me to draw up a good financial plan for this. Like I have said before, I would really like to find a peaceful solution (it takes two to tango). HORTON11: • 20:10, December 11, 2012 (UTC)

To get things straight:

• Both the Ministry of Transportation and both Governors should agree - Congress doesn't have a direct say in this one, unless it really is a useless project of course.
• The Railway from East Hills to Charleston would only be possible via Clave Rock.
• Estimated costs, depends on where to place the station in Hurb:
  • A direction connection to Hurbanova Railway Station: approx. $150,000,000
  • Building a new station north of Hurbanova: approx. $120,000,000

--OuWTB^sjrief-mich 09:50, December 12, 2012 (UTC)

Message Edit

Can I have [[File:OWTB not wilders.jpg]] for Dave Leskromento? Happy65 ^{Talk CNP} 16:06, December 13, 2012 (UTC)

In what way? --OuWTB^sjrief-mich 16:15, December 13, 2012 (UTC)

for the page. Happy65 ^{Talk CNP}

16:17, December 13, 2012 (UTC)

Interview Edit

Every week or so, The National Post will run an article on each of the major parties participating in the election. This will be a chance for each party to explain how they plan to go about during the elections and into the new year. I would like to start with CCPL, so it would be nice if you would answer there simple questions:

1. Do you think the "Uncle Oos" campaign image is enough to re-elect you as Prime Minister, or would you be better off promoting a CCPL "action plan"?
2. Can Christian democracy become a strong force in these elections with the emergence of Christian Democratic Party, or should you be wary of the populist and secular right?
3. What changes, if any, would you make to the CCPL campaign?
4. Anything else you want to add?

HORTON11: • 16:06, December 14, 2012 (UTC)

Sure:

1. Well, our party program hardly changed, except for a few insiders' things, so most people are still familiar with our plans. However, when the elections acutally start in January, more campaigning is to be expected :)
2. We are already a force to be reckoned with since the major conservative victory in 2010 (I hope that year ain't wrong :P). Personally, I think most of our voters will stay and not jump over to CDP, but the possibility exists. It should be noted that CCPL and CDP only have a limited sea of people to fish from. Religious people will stay at this address and will not run to the secular right.
3. None :P
4. Well, I would like to stress that these elections are - more than ever - about choosing the right people to do the job. If the wrong people are elected, we might have an inactive Congress.

--OuWTB^sjrief-mich 16:20, December 14, 2012 (UTC)

Thanks. Later on (today or tomorrow) you should see the article. HORTON11: • 16:30, December 14, 2012 (UTC)

Okay, very well :P --OuWTB^sjrief-mich 16:31, December 14, 2012 (UTC)

PL's positionEdit

On your personal analysis chart on your profile page, how could you consider the PL to be socially progressive, when in reality, we are opposed to social progressivism much like the CCPL? — Christopher Costello ^{(Pikapi • Chat • What's up)} 16:53, December 15, 2012 (UTC)

Social progressivism is support for gay marriage, abortion, euthanasia, etc. You're opposed to that? If so, he probably wasn't aware because you haven't put social policies on your platform. —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 16:57, December 15, 2012 (UTC)

I can fully support social (ethical) progressivism in PL by looking at the party program:

• PL feels that it is important to distance religiously-inspired morals or morals in general with any form of governmental law, for the sake of the basic right to freedom of religion. The government should continue to treat all religious institutions with indifference and allow them to influence the opinions and actions of its own members.
• PL feels that the government should be indifferent regarding personal matters such as same-sex marriage and abortion, leaving it to religious institutions to continue to voice their opinions on the matter and attempt to persuade the people. In situations such as with same sex-marriage, it should remain up to the institution on wether or not to conduct the ritual, and the government should not involve itself.

Especially the last one is very clear. You're not opposed to samesex marriage and abortion, and therefore you are creating supportive base for it (you leave a possibility - which will surely be used in modern times). One thing that concerns me however, is that you leave it up to religious institutions. Religious institutions preforming abortion? Sounds like an unhealthy situation to me... --OuWTB^sjrief-mich 09:13, December 16, 2012 (UTC)

I'm sorry, Chris, but that does seem socially progressive. Happy65 ^{Talk CNP} 09:19, December 16, 2012 (UTC)

I prefer the term indifferent. I'd say that our system allows for the inclusion of personal ethical values and morals much better than leftist parties, however. Taking that into account, the PL is closer to the CCPL than the CCPL is to any other party because our platform best allows individuals to take morality into account on their own. Because we are against regulating values in law, we are socially neutral, thus making us your closest ally. All that I can say is that God gave free will to man, and our system supports that. — Christopher Costello ^{(Pikapi • Chat • What's up)} 22:29, December 19, 2012 (UTC)

Unless you're a Calvinist. :P --Semyon 22:45, December 19, 2012 (UTC)

@Chris: Your coming down with a case of the"Newlabourism" where they kept claiming they were a socialist-labour party but were in reality a center party. Saying it and doing it are two different things :p. But you are not socially progressive but more "American Conservatism" Marcus/Michael Villanova 22:49, December 19, 2012 (UTC)

No way, he's almost a proper libertarian. Can you imagine Romney saying, 'the government should be indifferent regarding... abortion?' --Semyon 22:53, December 19, 2012 (UTC)

Still would've got him more votes :L Hoffmann KunarianTALK 23:22, December 19, 2012 (UTC)

The Oceana band Naselni Jazzeek has an album mentioned on their page, with several songs listed, but no article. Could I give it an article and/or review it at Lovia Music Center? 77topaz (talk) 10:58, December 19, 2012 (UTC)

Sure :) --OuWTB^sjrief-mich 11:01, December 19, 2012 (UTC)

Another question: what is Oceana for "early morning", "dawn chorus" and "fire"? 77topaz (talk) 11:04, December 19, 2012 (UTC)

early morning: ranimouning

dawn chorus: ewtecksong

fire: feyr

--OuWTB^sjrief-mich 11:20, December 19, 2012 (UTC)

Another question: what are some of the basic questions you would ask in order to get a good "sense" of a conlang? Basic characteristics? 77topaz (talk) 19:45, December 19, 2012 (UTC)

Well, in case of of a conlang, you would want to know its origins, its purpose, its phonology, and its grammar :) --OuWTB^sjrief-mich 06:45, December 20, 2012 (UTC)

Oh, I see, I was expecting more technical features. Hm. :P What does "phonology" mean? 77topaz (talk) 07:13, December 20, 2012 (UTC)

Phonology is the sounds of the language (more technically phonemes) which are combined together to make words. :) --Semyon 09:45, December 20, 2012 (UTC)

So how would one "summarise" a phonology? 77topaz (talk) 09:55, December 22, 2012 (UTC)

That's difficult. The best summarization is two tables: one for the vowels ([4]) and one for the consonants ([5]). You could also say that the language sounds like another language, but that's subjective. --OuWTB^sjrief-mich 10:08, December 22, 2012 (UTC)

Hm, my best-developed conlang is meant to not sound like another language. :P How about origins and purpose, how would they be summarised? 77topaz (talk) 10:27, December 22, 2012 (UTC)

Well, you could say it sounds like a chainsaw :P

Origins, f.e.: English, Indo-European, onomatopoeia, extraterrestrial, isolated language etc.

Purpose: for international business (auxiliary language), for fun, for artistic reasons (this is Oceana), for pyschologic testing (f.e. Toki Pona). --OuWTB^sjrief-mich 10:39, December 22, 2012 (UTC)

I see. What sort of things should be included in a summary of the grammar? 77topaz (talk) 10:44, December 22, 2012 (UTC)

What is the basic sentence structure? F.e. subject - verb - object

Does the language have inflections and conjugations?

How is the language grammatical alligned? Is it nominative-accusative or ergative-absolutive?

Morphology: is the language agglutinative, fusional or isolating? --OuWTB^sjrief-mich 10:56, December 22, 2012 (UTC)

Would it be useful for me to give such a "summary" of a conlang I'm working on, for you to evaluate? 77topaz (talk) 11:28, December 22, 2012 (UTC)

Sure, is it for a wiki? --OuWTB^sjrief-mich 11:39, December 22, 2012 (UTC)

It's for a conworld. Might eventually be on a wiki. 77topaz (talk) 23:44, December 22, 2012 (UTC)

Okay :) --OuWTB^sjrief-mich 08:38, December 23, 2012 (UTC)

Okay... origin: extraterrestrial; purpose: well, the same sort of purpose as Oceana I guess; phonology: not enough room right now for two tables, but it's meant to sound unusual; grammar: SOV order when unmarked, fusional, conjugating. 77topaz (talk) 10:03, December 23, 2012 (UTC)

Okay, have you thought of any sounds? F.e. clicks or throat sounds (epiglottal could be interesting)? --OuWTB^sjrief-mich 10:09, December 23, 2012 (UTC)

What's an epiglottal sound? Is it something similar to what the K'kree language from "Traveller" has? 77topaz (talk) 10:14, December 23, 2012 (UTC)

I don't know that film, epiglottal stop, voiced fricative, and voiceless. --OuWTB^sjrief-mich 10:19, December 23, 2012 (UTC)

Haha, "Traveller"'s not a film. :P 77topaz (talk) 10:29, December 23, 2012 (UTC)

Ow, told you I didn't know it :P --OuWTB^sjrief-mich 10:31, December 23, 2012 (UTC)

Do you need me to tell you about it? And also, the descriptions are quite obscure/jargony and .ogg files don't work properly on my computer. 77topaz (talk) 10:33, December 23, 2012 (UTC)

Well, is it interesting? :P Okay, it sounds like a saw :P --OuWTB^sjrief-mich 10:36, December 23, 2012 (UTC)

@Traveller: Yes, I would say so.

@Glottal stuff: that's a lot of help with differentiating between them. :P 77topaz (talk) 10:52, December 23, 2012 (UTC)

Well, the differences are somewhat like (can't give it exactly because of English phonology, which makes no sense at all...): t - z - s. :P --OuWTB^sjrief-mich 10:54, December 23, 2012 (UTC)

I see, roughly. :P By the way, Traveller is a sort of sci-fi variant of D&D with quite a well-developed universe, which has existed since 1977, though it is still being expanded and worked on (like D&D, I presume). 77topaz (talk) 10:57, December 23, 2012 (UTC)

D&D is not a film? :P --OuWTB^sjrief-mich 10:59, December 23, 2012 (UTC)

I mean Dungeons and Dragons. :P It is not a film, no. :P 77topaz (talk) 11:01, December 23, 2012 (UTC)

Ow, isn't that a videogame? :P --OuWTB^sjrief-mich 11:05, December 23, 2012 (UTC)

No, Oos, no. 77topaz (talk) 11:28, December 23, 2012 (UTC)

Hhaha, ow :P --OuWTB^sjrief-mich 11:29, December 23, 2012 (UTC)

I mentioned that Traveller was from 1977 and that it was partially a variant of D&D, and they didn't really have video games around that time. :P I thought D&D was pretty well known. :P 77topaz (talk) 11:33, December 23, 2012 (UTC)

I'm sorry, I'm not really into videogames and D&D stuff :P We used to play draughts and game of the goose when I was young :P --OuWTB^sjrief-mich 11:35, December 23, 2012 (UTC)

I see. :P Though D&D is notable for basically inventing the RPG genre. :P Anyway, here is Traveller. 77topaz (talk) 11:45, December 23, 2012 (UTC)

RPG Genre? :P --OuWTB^sjrief-mich 12:28, December 23, 2012 (UTC)

Role-Playing Game. :P 77topaz (talk) 19:30, December 23, 2012 (UTC)

Okay, so.. you need two players and you say you are either a dungeon or a dragon? :P --OuWTB^sjrief-mich 07:42, December 24, 2012 (UTC)

Seriously, Oos? :P 77topaz (talk) 07:48, December 24, 2012 (UTC)

I already suspected it would be something with a dice, like game of the goose :P --OuWTB^sjrief-mich 07:58, December 24, 2012 (UTC)

Yes, dice are involved. :P 77topaz (talk) 08:09, December 24, 2012 (UTC)

Hahaha, I knew there would be a retro part to it :P --OuWTB^sjrief-mich 08:12, December 24, 2012 (UTC)

Retro? You do realise when D&D was created? :P (Traveller, as I said before, was created in 1977) 77topaz (talk) 08:39, December 24, 2012 (UTC)

Yeah, so? They wanted to keep some old elements in it :P --OuWTB^sjrief-mich 08:40, December 24, 2012 (UTC)

It wasn't really retro when D&D came out - they had no computers yet. :P 77topaz (talk) 08:53, December 24, 2012 (UTC)

Well, what makes it such a special game then? :P --OuWTB^sjrief-mich 08:56, December 24, 2012 (UTC)

D&D was the "first" RPG game. It's perhaps also the best-known RPG game from that time period. 77topaz (talk) 09:19, December 24, 2012 (UTC)

They used dice when before the 70's :P --OuWTB^sjrief-mich 09:21, December 24, 2012 (UTC)

They were still in use at that time. :P 77topaz (talk) 09:30, December 24, 2012 (UTC)

... So they were radically innovative in not doing anything new? :P --OuWTB^sjrief-mich 09:49, December 24, 2012 (UTC)

Like I said, it was the first major RPG in any organised form. 77topaz (talk) 10:22, December 24, 2012 (UTC)

Okay :P --OuWTB^sjrief-mich 12:26, December 24, 2012 (UTC)

Anyway, what did you think of that conlang summary? Also, can we reset the indent? 77topaz (talk) 21:48, December 24, 2012 (UTC)

What did you think of that conlang summary? Edit

Anyway, what did you think of that conlang summary? Also, can we reset the indent? 77topaz (talk) 21:48, December 24, 2012 (UTC)

Well, it's surely interesting, but I still don't know what to expect, because I don't know the sounds :P Have you already been working more on it? Have you compile a word list or a grammar? Also, are there any other unusual things in the language, I assume there are, as it's an extraterrestrial language. --OuWTB^sjrief-mich 09:25, December 25, 2012 (UTC)

Unusual things: well, an unusual grammatical feature is that there are no declinations (is that the right word?) according to gender because the species that speaks it has no separate genders. Also, maybe a third of the items in your "Swadesh list" would have no words as such (not commonly-used ones, anyway), because of them being inapplicable to the species. 77topaz (talk) 10:21, December 25, 2012 (UTC)

Okay :P Have the aliens had any contact with our world? If they have extensive contact, they might have actually borrowed human language words into their language. --OuWTB^sjrief-mich 10:23, December 25, 2012 (UTC)

There's been some contact, so there'd be a word for human, but there'd be no word for "husband" for example, except maybe a borrowed, rarely-used one. 77topaz (talk) 10:27, December 25, 2012 (UTC)

And the words for mother and father would of course be replaced with a single word for "parent" :) --OuWTB^sjrief-mich 10:28, December 25, 2012 (UTC)

That would be correct. :) 77topaz (talk) 10:32, December 25, 2012 (UTC)

Dutch words Edit

So do you think you could help me with the Dutch lyrics for the anthem these few days? I'd have more time. HORTON11: • 15:26, December 19, 2012 (UTC)

Yeah, I think today will be possible :) --OuWTB^sjrief-mich 06:44, December 20, 2012 (UTC)

Please Edit

Please quickly go to http://carrington.wikia.com/wiki/Special:Chat?useskin=wikia Happy65 ^{Talk CNP} 08:39, December 23, 2012 (UTC)

Thanks for coming. I'm glad me, topaz, you and wabba have finally got to cchat together for once (since you never come on). Happy65 ^{Talk CNP} 10:16, December 23, 2012 (UTC)

Hahaha :P --OuWTB^sjrief-mich 10:58, December 23, 2012 (UTC)

Request Edit

May Adoha College teach the Bachelor in Oceana Studies. Happy65 ^{Talk CNP} 18:05, December 23, 2012 (UTC)

Well, it's up to the university it self, but I wouldn't recommend it. Adoha is not in Oceana-speaking territory and perhaps two universities teaching it is slightly too much. --OuWTB^sjrief-mich 07:41, December 24, 2012 (UTC)

Okay, shall we work on the limburgish wiki you created yesterday? Happy65 ^{Talk CNP} 07:43, December 24, 2012 (UTC)

Hahaha, first have to scan RC though. --OuWTB^sjrief-mich 07:44, December 24, 2012 (UTC)

I understand. Happy65 ^{Talk CNP} 07:46, December 24, 2012 (UTC)

Apology Edit

Due to the recent busy christmas mail, your newsletter is expected to be one day late. Your newsletter will arrive on the 27th December 2012. We apologise for the trouble and hope you as a reader of the Peace Island Times will forgive us. - Contact

No problem! :) --OuWTB^sjrief-mich 08:22, December 27, 2012 (UTC)

Thanks. We assure you your newsletter will arrive today. Happy65 ^{Talk CNP} 08:28, December 27, 2012 (UTC)

Okay :P --OuWTB^sjrief-mich 08:32, December 27, 2012 (UTC)

Anyway, I'm going to make Hui Van famous in Harvia. Happy65 ^{Talk CNP} 08:35, December 27, 2012 (UTC)

Wooh :P How are you planning to do that? --OuWTB^sjrief-mich 08:37, December 27, 2012 (UTC)

Give him the role of IWO games manager in harvia! Happy65 ^{Talk CNP} 08:53, December 27, 2012 (UTC)

I'm not sure whether he has time for that :P --OuWTB^sjrief-mich 09:00, December 27, 2012 (UTC)

Make him HCP's candidate for Prime Minister. Happy65 ^{Talk CNP} 09:02, December 27, 2012 (UTC)

Okay :P --OuWTB^sjrief-mich 09:07, December 27, 2012 (UTC)

Is Hui Van your character, Oos? Also, there's a conversation at Brunant's chat. 77topaz (talk) 09:10, December 27, 2012 (UTC)

Yes, he is :) --OuWTB^sjrief-mich 09:11, December 27, 2012 (UTC)

Oos, maybe using Maores would be useful, since a message on Lovia would stop that welcome-box from appearing. 77topaz (talk) 19:55, December 27, 2012 (UTC)

 :P --OuWTB^sjrief-mich 08:47, December 28, 2012 (UTC)

Nooo. The letter was delayed in the mail again. I'm cancelling the newsletter, it takes too long to be delivered. Also, there's another conversation at Brunant. Happy65 ^{Talk CNP} 08:58, December 28, 2012 (UTC)

Haahaha :P --OuWTB^sjrief-mich 08:58, December 28, 2012 (UTC)

Ha. Happy65 ^{Talk CNP} 13:26, December 28, 2012 (UTC)

Adding me (Strobe)Edit

Hey Oos, I can't add myself for elections. The page is locked... seeing as your an admin, I was hoping you could add me in. I became a citizen just in time for joining. I'll be putting this on other admin's walls as well. -- Strobe 03:53, December 31, 2012 (UTC)

You need to be autoconfirmed. That's a Wikia-wide function. You'll become an autoconfirmed after four full days, so you'll be just in time (the nominations end at 09:00 UTC). Exceptions can also be made in some cases. 77topaz (talk) 04:14, December 31, 2012 (UTC)

Yeah, considering your time zone, I'll add you to the list. 'Cause by the time you're back on-line, the elections'll probably have started. --OuWTB^sjrief-mich 09:43, December 31, 2012 (UTC)

Thanks Oos! :) --Strobe

Message Edit

Hello! I am Dave Leskromento! I hope you will vote for me in the federal elections, as this year the Conservative Nationalist Party is bigger than ever. I am working on lowering taxes, low electricity costs, great education for everybody in the country no matter how poor they are, a secure defence system so we are not invaded and a up and running ministry of justice with new supreme court judges than is ran by I, Dave Leskromento. I hope you give me your vote.

It worked. Happy65 ^{Talk CNP} 11:04, January 6, 2013 (UTC)

 :P --OuWTB^sjrief-mich 11:12, January 6, 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for the vote, btw. Happy65 ^{Talk CNP} 11:25, January 6, 2013 (UTC)

No problem :) --OuWTB^sjrief-mich 11:26, January 6, 2013 (UTC)

:) Happy65 ^{Talk CNP} 11:32, January 6, 2013 (UTC)

VotingEdit

Thanks for your vote, my friend and party member! Wabba The I (talk) 15:04, January 6, 2013 (UTC)

No problem! :) --OuWTB^sjrief-mich 15:48, January 6, 2013 (UTC)

Labour Congress Calling...Edit

If you would like the Labour Congress would like to question you, if you would like, to hopefully build relations, settle issues and work cooperatively in the future. If you want in Lovia chat (the message thingy on the main page) me and Horton can question the CCPL members and have a dioluage on the issues. Marcus/Michael Villanova 21:21, January 11, 2013 (UTC)

Okay, I'm not sure whether the time zones are helping us though :P --OuWTB^sjrief-mich 09:30, January 12, 2013 (UTC)

chat Edit

please! Happy65 ^{Talk CNP} 09:56, January 12, 2013 (UTC)

again please! Happy65 ^{Talk CNP} 13:18, January 12, 2013 (UTC)

Christian Political Coalition Edit

I was thinking of making a Christian political coalition after this election. CCPL, RTP, LCP, and CDP would probably be the make up. What do you think? --Quarantine Zone (talk) 18:15, January 13, 2013 (UTC)

It will not be a very strong coalition, I think, because we lack enough seats to get something done :( We should focus on the broader perspective: Does Lovia want a leftist, centrist, or rightist coalition? --OuWTB^sjrief-mich 08:49, January 14, 2013 (UTC)

Would be interesting, joinging together in the same of an all powerful being, i wonder if anyone had ever thought of that :P. But christian parties range, in this country from center-left, radical centre, and center-right and Rightism. Would work in theory. Marcus/Michael Villanova 22:01, January 14, 2013 (UTC)

I was just thinking with the Godless community that we have in the world today that we may need something like this... --Quarantine Zone (talk) 22:48, January 14, 2013 (UTC)

Check your self at the door. now. Seriously. I get seriously annoyed when i hear this mainly coming from "christians". IN a world where 85% of the people believe in GOD, stop. Your joking. In any category where you have 85% of people in a category it's not a "something-less community" it's a SUPER-majority. But lemme play your game, 33% of people in the world are christian. Okay fine, but you all believe in the same God just in a different form and way to worship him so it's bascially the same idea/theory/person. So yeah.....about that "Godless Society"? Marcus/Michael Villanova 00:12, January 15, 2013 (UTC)

When I say Godless, I mean Godless in a Christian term. I'm talking to Oos, who is a Christian, and I am a Christian. Godless, not as in atheist, but rather, anything that isn't Christianity is how a Christian would define Godlessness. The percentage of Christians to non-Christians is dropping, so in a Christian's view, yes Godless. All religions do not believe in the same God... Technically speaking, you could say Christians, Jews, Muslims, and Mormons all believe in the same God, but it's still by no means fact. It's very disputable. --Quarantine Zone (talk) 02:39, January 15, 2013 (UTC)

Either your admitting that there is no god or there is but since it's the same guy but worshiped by different people it's not the same guy. Meanwhile it is. It's something all powerful, knowing, understanding and the creator of all things. Some call him Allah, some Yahew, or God/Jesus. Some think he had many prophets, some one. Same guy though, if you just don't believe this it's ingornance to proove some point that there's an invisable attack on god or reiligions, when there's not. Or that my sect of said reiligion is better in your comment above, stating christianity and mormonism is different, in theory sure but in practice and core beliefs there the same. God said Love thy neighbor, in this case if your a Mormon Christian or as I was a Lutheran Christian, we were one in the same just wanted to divide our common belifes by saying "hey i'm a lutheran" or "Hey i'm a catholic"...in reality were the same. 02:45, January 15, 2013 (UTC)

@Marcus: May I tell you that in the Netherlands over 50% is atheist? And of the remaining 50%, most are actually just atheist, but still officially religious. --OuWTB^sjrief-mich 10:40, January 15, 2013 (UTC)

According to polling, 50% is not atheist, but you're right that more than 50% are "actually just atheist, but still officially religious". —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 11:52, January 15, 2013 (UTC)

Yeah, I was probably excluding the immigrant communities :P --OuWTB^sjrief-mich 11:59, January 15, 2013 (UTC)

Mormonism actually adds to the Bible. It's different than Christianity in its views. The different denominations do not add to the Bible, they simply interpret it differently. As for the Macabies in Catholicism, they are simply historical documents, and they are generally accepted among the Christian community. The different denominations and religions have different views and worship different things. As far as Christianity's view goes, some religions worship nothing, as there Gods are fake, and some worship demons or Satan or earthly items. Also, some religions are polytheistic. Beside the point here, the coalition Oos? --Quarantine Zone (talk)

As I reacted above: I support cooperation, but we probably won't have enough seats to form a real strong coalition. --OuWTB^sjrief-mich 09:31, January 16, 2013 (UTC)

Don't we have less power without the coalition though? --Quarantine Zone (talk) 02:56, January 17, 2013 (UTC)

Well, we could set up a coalition on our ethical views (like abortion, gay marriage etc.), but not on our economic views :) --OuWTB^sjrief-mich 09:23, January 17, 2013 (UTC)

It's true that there are no conservative coalitions. We could start one of those. That would be us, and then minor parties. --Quarantine Zone (talk) 21:56, January 17, 2013 (UTC)

Okay, I'm open for it :) --OuWTB^sjrief-mich 08:21, January 18, 2013 (UTC)

Long Road Edit

Oos, Long Road can't be on the edge of the Beaver River. With the accurate sizing of Lovia, unless I am mistaken as to where the mouth of the beaver river runs. Hoffmann KunarianTALK 12:36, January 16, 2013 (UTC)

Oh like that. I read "on the right edge" instead of "right on the edge". Well, not direclty indeed. It is perhaps not really clear on the maps. There is perhaps a few miles between it. However, I wouldn't undo this, because it still gives an idea of the course of the river. --OuWTB^sjrief-mich 12:38, January 16, 2013 (UTC)

I'll see if I can find a wording which doesn't indicate it to be on the edge but does keep an idea of where the course of the river is then. Hoffmann KunarianTALK 12:40, January 16, 2013 (UTC)

Okay :) Perhaps you could keep the river off of the Long Road Maps if you indicate in the text that the river runs south of it. --OuWTB^sjrief-mich 12:42, January 16, 2013 (UTC)

I'll make sure I do that. :) Hoffmann KunarianTALK 12:46, January 16, 2013 (UTC)

Okay, thanks :) --OuWTB^sjrief-mich 12:47, January 16, 2013 (UTC)

chat Edit

please. Happy65 ^{Talk CNP} 17:34, January 16, 2013 (UTC)

sorry Edit

Britain has too bad weather and the chat server won't work in the country. sorry. Happy65 ^{Talk CNP} 17:00, January 18, 2013 (UTC)

Hhahaha, okay :P --OuWTB^sjrief-mich 17:02, January 18, 2013 (UTC)

WikistadEdit

Please look on Wikistad in Forum:De kroeg and Forum:Parlement. Wabba The I (talk) 17:20, January 22, 2013 (UTC)

Chat Edit

Immediatly. Happy65 ^{Talk CNP} 15:50, January 25, 2013 (UTC)

Gay equality bill Edit

Hello! Namaste! Greetings!

My name is Elk Punarbhava and I am a member of the new social movement, Reboot, to which you are very much invited to join. We would be happy to have a new, people and nature loving member in our midst!

I want to introduce a bill in the 1st Chamber on same-sex marriage and gay equality. Before I write it, I am looking for a broad coalition of partners that will support it. I would like to make sure that all the rights that mixed-sex couples enjoy by law and in society, are also granted to homosexual couples. I am also adamant about defending the rights of these people and fighting all forms of discrimination. If possible, I will include this in the bill.

Can I count on you and the party you represent to stand by my side in this battle? Lovia needs change in the right direction. Making sure nobody is discriminated on the basis of sexual preference, or who he or she loves, is the first thing on my list, and hope it's on yours too. Let me know if I can count on you.

Thank you so very much, Punarbhava (talk) 13:49, February 6, 2013 (UTC)

First: Welcome to Lovia! :) We are always glad to see new users active in our politics.

I am already member of another political party, called Conservative Christian Party of Lovia, a center-left wing party based on Christianity, but of course I am not ruling out any possible collaboration with your movement :)

According to our Marriage Law, Gay Marriage is already legal (as it has not been forbidden and the law does not mention marriage must be between a man and a woman). --OuWTB^sjrief-mich 13:53, February 6, 2013 (UTC)

I appreciate Lovia's progressive laws, and your openness on the matter. I was hoping to change the law so it expressly mentions either option. Also, I would like to change the marriage law to open up opportunities to couples who wish to live differently that what is conventional. Under the current law, married couples have to live together. It is not up to the law to determine where one should live, is it? This is something I would like to change in due time. Of course, that is not an urgent matter. First of all, I would like to make work of enshrining gays' rights and making sure discrimination is illegal. Punarbhava (talk) 13:58, February 6, 2013 (UTC)

Well, if "expressly mentioning" means mentioning man and man, woman and woman is allowed, it should also explicitly mention "man and woman" is allowed, otherwise it would be discrimination of heterosexuals. We surely can't let gay people be discriminated, but we should not give them a special treatment :)

"The spouses have the duty to live together in the marital residence." It might indeed be slightly vague. Does it mean you have to live under the same roof, or does it mean you have to possess a shared home? That's something to discuss about :)

That would require a constitutional change in Article 2: [6]. "Of equality, by race, religion, political opinion, language, sex, property, birth or other statuses." -> "Of equality, by race, religion, political opinion, language, sex, property, birth, sexual orientation or other statuses." And perhaps the adding of "To be protected from discrimination". --OuWTB^sjrief-mich 14:08, February 6, 2013 (UTC)

That is indeed a very good idea.

I of course never meant to discriminate heterosexuals. It would be good to just add; "between a man and a woman, two men, two women, or any other combination of two people, including those who cannot be seen as belonging to any of the traditional gender categories." This would allow for transgender people and the like to obtain the same treatment. Punarbhava (talk) 14:13, February 6, 2013 (UTC)

Of course not :) However, I doubt it would add anything to the current law. As this addition would not change anything. It would only stress the fact that there are differences in sexual preference, while I believe it would be better to not stress them at all. Stressing them would give them an "unnatural" feel, something I believe your movement is trying to suppress :) --OuWTB^sjrief-mich 14:25, February 6, 2013 (UTC)

That could be true, yes. Maybe you are right. In that case, I would just try to add the "sexual orientation" clause to the Constitution, and introduce legislation detailing how we should deal with (any kind of) discrimination. Punarbhava (talk) 14:31, February 6, 2013 (UTC)

Okay, I will propose this in our legislation after we've got our Government together :) Of course, your input is always appreciated. --OuWTB^sjrief-mich 14:37, February 6, 2013 (UTC)

If you don't mind, I am already writing a proposal. I would gladly propose this to Congress, after which you can maybe move it through Congress. Thanks in advance, Punarbhava (talk) 15:10, February 6, 2013 (UTC)

Okay, sure, go ahead :) --OuWTB^sjrief-mich 15:18, February 6, 2013 (UTC)

(reset) But Oos, he isn't part of Congress, nor is he a citizen, and the current marriage law already allows all types of marriage. Can he add this to the First Chamber? I think I may have caught some flaws here. --15:57, February 6, 2013 (UTC)

Normally, he can't add this but someone can make him congressperson. Wabba The I (talk) 16:10, February 6, 2013 (UTC)

Any citizen is able to propose bills in the First Chamber. 77topaz (talk) 19:00, February 6, 2013 (UTC)

He isn't a citizen though. --Quarantine Zone (talk) 20:40, February 6, 2013 (UTC)

That would be unfortunate. Still, I can pass on my proposals to someone who is accepted by the establishment, and he or she can then introduce the bill. I do not care for being considered the "author" or "sponsor" of the bill. If we can achieve this small change with the help of OWTB, for example, that would be fabulous. Punarbhava (talk) 22:11, February 6, 2013 (UTC)

You'll become a citizen once you get enough edits and time, and fill in the form. 77topaz (talk) 03:54, February 7, 2013 (UTC)

Indeed, becoming a citizen is not a hard thing. You only need 4 days of activity and 50 edits :) --OuWTB^sjrief-mich 07:42, February 7, 2013 (UTC)

Thank you! Punarbhava (talk) 07:51, February 7, 2013 (UTC)

Confusion Edit

Are supreme court judges elected by Congress or you and I, now I'm incharge of MoJ. Happy65 ^{Talk CNP} 08:19, February 8, 2013 (UTC)

Still, Congress. --OuWTB^sjrief-mich 18:36, February 8, 2013 (UTC)

Hmm, that's ashame, I'll bring it into congress soon and also start designing a prison in Newhaven. Chat also. Happy65 ^{Talk CNP} 18:39, February 8, 2013 (UTC)

Okay :) --OuWTB^sjrief-mich 18:39, February 8, 2013 (UTC)

Issue Edit

As the Prime Minister, could you evaluate the events surrounding the Ministry of Agriculture's seal and the "issue" around it? 77topaz (talk) 05:19, February 11, 2013 (UTC)

As it's not an urgent matter, I propose to wait until thursday :P --OuWTB^sjrief-mich 06:05, February 11, 2013 (UTC)

Please come to chat. -Sunkist- (talk) 06:19, February 11, 2013 (UTC)

No, I'm sorry. I gotta go to university right now or I'll miss the bus :P --OuWTB^sjrief-mich 06:19, February 11, 2013 (UTC)

Replacement Edit

This has been the worst few weeks on Wikination since I came here a few years ago. I'm unable to contribute to the site, and feel like I should just leave. I was looking forward to passing several farm bills, improving Lovia's agricultural pages, improving the Ministry of Agriculture page and helping farmers of Lovia at whole. I now understand this is an OOC game, in which everything is a personal attack, and that coming from an RP background I'm not fit for the situation. Now I know why Super_Warmonkey said he'd never come. I liked you Oos, as well with Kur, but I feel like I don't get along with the rest of the site. I'm officially resigning from the Ministries of Agriculture & Energy. I'm not sure what do with my Congressmen, and whom will use them to vote. -Sunkist- (talk) 22:58, February 11, 2013 (UTC)

Lovia is a community, where you don't get to do anything based on your own whims. It has to fit in, be realistic, and make sense. On Conworlds, you can do whatever you want on your own world that you own--even if the other users disagree with it. On Lovia, other people should agree with what you do. You have to be able to make compromises, and if everyone is against you, to submit to the will of the community. As for me, I am very demanding but I will compromise (unless it's something like GAPP that no-one else likes).

Also, please don't claim that "everything is a personal attack". We are not criticizing you, but rather what you are doing. We expect you to listen and act on our opinions, not claim that it is "yours" and ignore us. —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 23:27, February 11, 2013 (UTC)

Yeah me and TM will always argue over GAPP, but I don't take it like oh it must be TM hates me (maybe he does :P) but it's just a construction of one community so everyone wants it to be shaped in there eyes, like a real nation. Voting, discussion and even should building up certain sectors, is being active even if it's like for 2 out of the 7 days in the week. The reason I was against the Western Sylvanian talk and farming talk, wasn't because of you, but it was never talked about and was randomly thought to be a big thing, but over time like oceana nationalism if you work and become a staple in the community we respect it and say "hey maybe he has a point'. Marcus/Michael Villanova 23:32, February 11, 2013 (UTC)

Sunkist, logically, it is hard to actually form a personal attack on here. We don't know each other's personalities too well, so if someone disagrees with you, it's because they don't agree with your views. Time and I are IRL friends, and even though our views differ, we don't take it as personal attacks on each other. --Quarantine Zone (talk) 02:29, February 12, 2013 (UTC)

I can only say that I would find it very unfortunate to see you leaving. You made several valuable contributions to this site and are a likable person. --OuWTB^sjrief-mich 06:12, February 12, 2013 (UTC)

oos chat Edit

Please. Please. Please. Please. Happy65 ^{Talk CNP} 09:09, February 16, 2013 (UTC)

Chat Edit

Hey Oos, do you want to come on chat? HORTON11: • 16:41, February 18, 2013 (UTC)

Hi Oos Edit

How are you? How's it going with the studies? Swedish, eh? DimiTalen 08:28, February 23, 2013 (UTC)

Hahahaha, a "familiair gesprekje", Dimitri? :P Yeah, everything's going well. This semester we've got Old Norse, so that's pretty interesting :P Have you already finished your studies? --OuWTB^sjrief-mich 09:04, February 23, 2013 (UTC)

chat Edit

chat chat chat chat Happy65 ^{Talk CNP} 09:07, February 23, 2013 (UTC)

Adoha Regional Airport Edit

Please delete this page! Its unessacary, many people agree with me see (Talk:Adoha) and for a small island a second airport nearby is not needed. Marcus/Michael Villanova 00:48, March 2, 2013 (UTC)

Comes before the baker. --OuWTB^sjrief-mich 08:26, March 2, 2013 (UTC)

chatta Edit

chat chat chat chat chat. chat chat chat chat. Happy65 ^{Talk CNP} 08:31, March 2, 2013 (UTC)

Mr. Prime Minister Edit

Hello Oos :P hey remember our old friend Yuri? He created these old administrations like the Center for Societal Welfare and Board on the Fight Against Poverty. He created these great social welfare institutions yet never set up or created, UNTIL NOW :P. I have started them and would like to know were you would vote since you are a member on the Board on the Fight Against Poverty.

• Food Stamps
• Cooperation with the LFA World Charity Fund to set up two homeless shelters to be funded 40% by the government and 60% by the LFA, with voluenteers. The locations would be in Noble City and Hurbanova.

Thanks for your votes on these (either pro or against) Marcus/Michael Villanova 20:35, March 27, 2013 (UTC)

Sure:

@Food stamps: could you be a little bit more detailed? :P

@LFA World: Pro. --OuWTB^sjrief-mich 07:52, March 28, 2013 (UTC)

Well look on the Center for Societal Welfare page for the qualifications needed to obtain food stamps. Basically since our budget would be small I could only extend them to some Lovians. Marcus/Michael Villanova 13:17, March 28, 2013 (UTC)

Okay, sounds good, pro :P --OuWTB^sjrief-mich 13:43, March 28, 2013 (UTC)

Oos, your signature seems to be malfunctioning. :o 77topaz (talk) 07:28, March 29, 2013 (UTC)

 :o --OuWTB^sjrief-mich 09:12, March 29, 2013 (UTC)

No: [7] --OuWTB^sjrief-mich 09:13, March 29, 2013 (UTC)

The "copy" of your signature at 13:43 links to "Ooswesthoesbes", not "User:Ooswesthoesbes". :P 77topaz (talk) 09:14, March 29, 2013 (UTC)

Yes, Frijoles removed the "User:" part for some reason (probably by mistake). --OuWTB^sjrief-mich 09:17, March 29, 2013 (UTC)

That's strange. :P 77topaz (talk) 09:17, March 29, 2013 (UTC)

 :P --OuWTB^sjrief-mich 09:21, March 29, 2013 (UTC)

CitizenshipEdit

Sorry to bother you, but would you mind sending me the citizenship survey? I've been around for almost four days now and am very keen to participate in Lovian society. Thank you very much. Sincerely, Marcel Cebara Frijoles333 (talk) 07:18, March 29, 2013 (UTC)

Sure :) --OuWTB^sjrief-mich 09:15, March 29, 2013 (UTC)

Act now! Edit

Can the parts on reforms, uncluding state law and parliamentary style state councils, be pushed and into the second chamber soon. This is one of these reform I'd really love to get passed something I'd care very dearly about even without running in two states. Marcus/Michael Villanova 22:50, April 5, 2013 (UTC)

Okay :P --OuWTB^sjrief-mich 09:16, April 6, 2013 (UTC)

chat Edit

Get on da chat. Happy65 ^{Talk CNP} 18:17, April 14, 2013 (UTC)

Milk is good for everyone Edit

I noticed that our plan to get MIGFE to FA status and the main page has kind of stalled. Therefore, in order to motivate editing, I challenge you to a little game - we take turns to add a set amount to the page, say 500 bytes. If one of us goes for two days without making the required edit, they automatically lose, and pay a forfeit - e.g. a humiliating article in TNCT about being mauled by a wallfish. :P Do you accept this challenge? :P --Semyon 20:22, April 16, 2013 (UTC)

Alternative forfeit: if I lose, I join CCPL; if I win, I become leader of CCPL. :P No, I don't think that's a good idea. :P --Semyon 20:24, April 16, 2013 (UTC)

Would it be possible to make it three days? Considering the fact that I'm commonly in Amsterdam for two days without internet access :P --OuWTB^sjrief-mich 08:27, April 17, 2013 (UTC)

Yeah, sounds reasonable. :P --Semyon 12:40, April 17, 2013 (UTC)

Okay :P --OuWTB^sjrief-mich 12:56, April 17, 2013 (UTC)

delete Edit

as per request please delete [[File:Thingsgetheated.png]] and [[File:Chats.png]]. Marcus/Michael Villanova 19:45, May 19, 2013 (UTC)

Hang on... doesn't that count as evidence or something? :P 77topaz (talk) 04:38, May 20, 2013 (UTC)

Why deleting? Wabba The I (talk) 09:42, May 20, 2013 (UTC)

Apparently it is "traceable" to sunkist which might hurt his political aspirations. Just to drop it delete it. Plus both of them dropped the charges so it doesn't matter. Marcus/Michael Villanova 10:02, May 20, 2013 (UTC)

If he thinks he is going to become a senator, and people are going to look through his wikia edits decades before, he is delusional. He better take a seat, have a chillpill and take it easy. It is evidence, sure, so keep it as such. Got the screens anyway. So why bother deleting it? The boy's cray-cray if he thinks one single indiscreet "fuck you" in chat is going to hinder his political ambitions. I mean seriously, c'mon... The glorious First Consul of Rome (talk) 10:31, May 20, 2013 (UTC)

What's the big deal about keeping them? Can I just please have what was requested or do we have to carry this on...just delete the the pictures. -Sunkist- (talk) 10:39, May 20, 2013 (UTC)

What's the big deal about deleting them? The glorious First Consul of Rome (talk) 10:40, May 20, 2013 (UTC)

Because I request it as so, and I have my reasons due to the fact the picture takes the entire context out of proportion and sheds badly on me, never did I agree to the chat being a public thing. This is where OOC and RP slowly begin to clash. Just please delete them. ---Sunkist- (talk) 10:43, May 20, 2013 (UTC)

I agree with Sunkist. These are communications between users and should only have ramifications with other users. What is discussed here should not be applied to RP (and shouldn't even be used against him OOC either) unless it is a specific RP thing, like an interview or question time. —TimeMaster (talk • contribs) 20:39, May 20, 2013 (UTC)

Honestly its nothing incriminating within the game and outside its nothing just if he wants it gone, delete it. Oos c'mon. Marcus/Michael Villanova 21:55, May 20, 2013 (UTC)

I saved a copy, so they won't get lost in case we may need them. --OuWTB^sjrief-mich 03:13, May 21, 2013 (UTC)

Need them for what? -Sunkist- (talk) 03:16, May 21, 2013 (UTC)

You may never know :P --OuWTB^sjrief-mich 03:18, May 21, 2013 (UTC)

Congratulations Edit

I just saw that you've done your 14000th edit today :P 4kant,6^FRÅGOR??? 15:52, May 22, 2013 (UTC)

 :o Thanks :P I knew I was addicted, but that I was this much over the top.. :P --OuWTB^sjrief-mich 15:55, May 22, 2013 (UTC)

 ::Deeply impressed bro! Keep it up! They should really name you King for this. Or, at the very least Duke of Oshenna. Keep dat jew eskapad or something. So, yeah, Naranja! The glorious First Consul of Rome (talk) 16:00, May 22, 2013 (UTC)

I'm suporting you as King but not at the moment. Wabba The I (talk) 18:34, May 22, 2013 (UTC)

    We should throw a party when he reaches 15000, the entire nation is invited :D Marcus/Michael Villanova 20:39, May 22, 2013 (UTC)

Yeah, National Oos's 15000th Lovian Edit Day :P --OuWTB^sjrief-mich 03:12, May 23, 2013 (UTC)

Very good idea :P 4kant,6^FRÅGOR??? 18:38, May 23, 2013 (UTC)

Two things Edit

I'm pro jobs but thought there should have been discussion for your project. Can you support mine for yours, either way it's both jobs and we need them at the moment for both our states. Two, propose your monarchy referendum, we need some political drama :P Marcus/Michael Villanova 12:36, May 26, 2013 (UTC)

Political drama? Well, I am in for some mor drama! Nobody pressed charges, I can bring some more fire to Noble City. Hell, I could even march upon the Congress and set the whole bloody thing on fire. That dramatic enough for your liking? The glorious First Consul of Rome (talk) 15:23, May 26, 2013 (UTC)

Dramatic within the confinds of legality xD Marcus/Michael Villanova 15:28, May 26, 2013 (UTC)

How about I sue the state, and former Judge Arthur Jefferson, for the unlawful outlawing of the IGP? A huge, controversial trial with several of us as lawyers\judges\court officials and witnesses, something big, something interesting and yet entirely legal. The glorious First Consul of Rome (talk) 15:30, May 26, 2013 (UTC)

I'll switch the vote straightaway. The monarchy referendum'll have to wait :) --OuWTB^sjrief-mich 15:42, May 26, 2013 (UTC)

Train Village Local ElectionsEdit

Local elections are currently ongoing in the Train Village Area and everyone is encouraged to take part either as a voter or as a candidate for the Train Village Town Council! This small information pack should get you ready to participate and contribute to the event!

What's up for grabs?

• All 10 seats of the Train Village Town Council are up for election

When and how do I stand for election?

• Today is the 29th of May, the last day on which you can stand as a candidate for election, so act now!
• Go here and put up your candidacy in the correct style however to stand for election you MUST have been a resident of Sylvania for at least two months prior to today

When and how do I vote?

• Voting will begin tomorrow on the 30th of May and will end on the 6th of June
• As long as you are at least a citizen you can vote however the amount of votes you have depend on your official residence
  • If you have an official house within the Train Village Area and resided there for at least two months prior to today then you are eligible to vote with a major vote, a minor vote as well as a support vote
  • If you have an official house within Sylvania and resided there for at least two months prior to today then you are eligible to vote with a minor vote as well as a support vote
  • If you are a Lovian citizen then you are eligible to vote with a support vote
• Go here to vote but REMEMBER you can only vote for any candidate or party once, if you are confused however simply cast your votes and we will be at hand to help smooth out any problems

What will the council do once it's elected?

• It will decide how spending is to be done in the Train Village Area
• It will vote on how Train Village should develop as a settlement
• It will advise the Governor on action to take in the Train Village Area

Extra Info

• For more help concerning this issue contact Lukas Hoffmann, the Governor of Sylvania
• Currently the CNP are standing one candidate, the GP is standing one candidate and the LP is standing two candidates
• The CNP has already put up an ad, see it here
• The LP has already put up an ad, see it here

Hey Oos there's a poll in the Pub, it's about the rule I put in place to stop people voting just within their party. Marcus has taken offence with it, claiming it's an affront to democracy, when at worst it stops him and frijole from just exchanging their votes and sitting on that. I'd hope you'd agree with me on this one but just making you aware of this.

This is the last of my awareness raising messages. Hoffmann KunarianTALK 19:50, June 2, 2013 (UTC)

Two things: I hope you vote no in that poll. For the sake of free, unregulated democracy with those who want to support someone, will have the choice. Please understand it doesn't just affect me, it affects you, time, me and anyone trying to see there nation changed/. There are solutions, that could be discussed, that could be better for the nation, and I hope you'd support that idea. Please vote no.

Are you going to propose the Monarchy Referendum? Marcus/Michael Villanova 20:02, June 2, 2013 (UTC)

My little reply. I hope you understand that no democracy is 'free' and 'unregulated' and that this rule (like all the other rules) has been put in to serve multiple purposes that increase fairness in our democracy, which it currently is serving. And understand that this is an experiment in democracy happening only in the local elections, and that the experiment is going rather well so far. Please vote to agree that this is good for democracy. Hoffmann KunarianTALK 20:13, June 2, 2013 (UTC)

 I know it isn't but understand the whole concept of democracy is twofold. To allow people to choose freely even if you disagree with them, and even if they fail, and fail, and fail, you have to allow them too. Believe me, i'm the biggest "get off your ass and do your fucking job" guy out there, but they way i'd combat that is by taking it out on the politicians not the voters. Marcus/Michael Villanova 20:26, June 2, 2013 (UTC)

@Monarchy: Later this week :) --OuWTB^sjrief-mich 03:11, June 3, 2013 (UTC)

On purpose loophole? Edit

Well with your law does it technically allow eah state to erect a state council on there own terms and with power since it allows such things to take place? If so i'll vote pro. Marcus/Michael Villanova 13:27, June 8, 2013 (UTC)

Yes it does but it's not a loophole, it'd be like my local councils, established in the name of democracy, completely optional and requiring extra work for the governor and the decisions of the council aren't binding without the nod of the governor. I think this is a good way to go, especially, as I hope you know that we need state laws to deal with things such as the voting age, and on top of that Governors like me will give the nod to State Councils. Hoffmann KunarianTALK 13:41, June 8, 2013 (UTC)

Alright then! I'll be supporting it. Marcus/Michael Villanova 13:53, June 8, 2013 (UTC)

See Kunarian's reply :P --OuWTB^sjrief-mich 08:27, June 9, 2013 (UTC)